(07:55:49 AM) Azrael07: hi :)
(07:55:52 AM) STFU-Ender: hey
(07:56:03 AM) Amanieu: You got Azrael07's reply?
(07:56:07 AM) Amanieu: He just sent it
(07:56:20 AM) STFU-Ender: yeah, and I just read it
(07:56:24 AM) STFU-Ender: was just about to write a reply :)
(07:56:34 AM) STFU-Ender: then I realized that I needed to learn a little more about pidgin, and what it can do
(07:56:42 AM) Amanieu: lol
(07:56:49 AM) STFU-Ender: suddenly discovered that I could have pidgin monitor this IRC node for me
(07:56:56 AM) STFU-Ender: and now I'm here talking to you :D
(07:57:16 AM) Amanieu: heh
(07:57:24 AM) STFU-Ender: man, pidgin rocks. I've always loved pidgin, but I had no idea until yesterday it could do IRC for me
(07:57:43 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: hehe ^^
(07:57:47 AM) Amanieu: Try reading the protocol list next time
(07:57:50 AM) Amanieu: :P
(07:57:53 AM) STFU-Ender: lol
(07:57:56 AM) Kangounator: I use pidgin too
(07:58:02 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: I use irssi, it's rox too :)
(07:58:05 AM) Kangounator: though I use chatzilla for IRC
(07:58:16 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: command line, so irc client is on my server ^^
(07:59:40 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Ender: So what option do you think is best when it comes to release plan?
(08:01:37 AM) STFU-Ender: was just about getting to that in my email response
(08:01:43 AM) STFU-Ender: Still need to think it through
(08:02:02 AM) STFU-Ender: do you know how big the userbase is for each fork? STFU-Trem, DnC Amanieu?
(08:02:47 AM) STFU-Ender: STFU Trem has, mostly likely, the smallest
(08:02:50 AM) Amanieu: DnC has the entire French tremulous community
(08:03:09 AM) Amanieu: Possibly the italian and spanish too
(08:03:23 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: amanieu suggest to use tremulous r1089 as base
(08:03:26 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Trem has the D*S community
(08:03:39 AM) STFU-Ender: yeah...I'm looking at the server now, we've got 229 registered players
(08:03:51 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: D*S server ?
(08:03:51 AM) STFU-Ender: that's not that many, but for the most part, I think D*S will follow us
(08:04:00 AM) STFU-Ender: no, STFU-Tremulous Testing Server
(08:04:07 AM) Azrael07: oh, ok :)
(08:04:15 AM) Azrael07: ok, cool :)
(08:04:23 AM) ilgufo [n=Matteo@host239-157-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] entered the room.
(08:04:30 AM) ilgufo left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
(08:04:42 AM) ilgufo [n=Matteo@host239-157-dynamic.58-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] entered the room.
(08:04:43 AM) Amanieu: So what's your idea for releasing?
(08:05:04 AM) STFU-Ender: I agree that we should use the latest HEAD of tremulous as a base
(08:05:04 AM) Amanieu: - Wait, you release STFU 1.0.0, we release DnC Kitty, and we think for a
(08:05:04 AM) Amanieu: merge after ?
(08:05:04 AM) Amanieu: - Wait, you release STFU 1.0.0, then we merge to complete DnC Kitty
(08:05:04 AM) Amanieu: (under another name) ?
(08:05:04 AM) Amanieu: - Merge immediatly and delay releases because merge will take many time
(08:05:06 AM) Amanieu: and will break stability ?
(08:05:09 AM) Amanieu: - Merge immediatly and release in one month ? It will realy stable ? I
(08:05:11 AM) Amanieu: don't think.
(08:05:46 AM) STFU-Ender: I also agree that we SHOULD merge
(08:05:54 AM) Amanieu: \o/
(08:05:56 AM) STFU-Ender: we have too much in common not to
(08:06:11 AM) STFU-Ender: it makes no sense to have two different teams doing such similar work
(08:07:00 AM) STFU-Ender: I think it makes the most sense for STFU to not release, and wait until we can merge
(08:07:01 AM) Azrael07: :)
(08:07:49 AM) STFU-Ender: we haven't released yet at all, and so adding a release that we're just going to merge in the end makes no sense
(08:07:51 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: how many time you think a good project must have between two releases ?
(08:08:06 AM) STFU-Ender: 1-3 months
(08:08:09 AM) STFU-Ender: well...
(08:08:15 AM) Azrael07: ouch
(08:08:19 AM) STFU-Ender: for Tremulous where you have 3 revision numbers
(08:08:30 AM) Azrael07: for I, 6 months
(08:08:48 AM) STFU-Ender: I'd say less than a month is a +0.0.1 release
(08:08:53 AM) Azrael07: oh, ok
(08:09:02 AM) STFU-Ender: 6 months is a +0.1.0 release
(08:09:07 AM) Azrael07: yep ^^
(08:09:08 AM) Amanieu: Taking the HEAD revision and patching it up will only take about 1 week, the rest is just bugtesting
(08:09:09 AM) STFU-Ender: anything from 1-6 is a +0.1.0 release
(08:09:36 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: but... we must fix *what* we must apply
(08:09:40 AM) STFU-Ender: anything arbitrarily large (rants can fly, human rets shoot through walls, aliens now have kittens) is a +1.0.0 release
(08:10:05 AM) Amanieu: yay! Aliens have kittens! /me <3 kittens
(08:10:09 AM) STFU-Ender: lol
(08:10:09 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: agree
(08:10:22 AM) Azrael07: :D
(08:10:53 AM) STFU-Ender: The thing I can't get my head around is how multiple master servers would work without some kind of master master server
(08:11:00 AM) STFU-Ender: I'm not that familiar with how peer-to-peer of that nature works
(08:11:17 AM) Amanieu: not really
(08:11:31 AM) Amanieu: Servers choose which masters they register on
(08:11:39 AM) Amanieu: And clients choose which masters they query
(08:11:50 AM) Amanieu: You don't really need any communication
(08:12:03 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: you don't get it
(08:12:14 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: masterserver must communicate themself too :)
(08:12:26 AM) ***Amanieu doesn't get it
(08:12:34 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: a masterserver have list of knowed masterserver
(08:13:09 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: when it's query another MS, their interchange their list
(08:13:16 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: it's only an idea
(08:13:28 AM) Azrael07: oups
(08:13:32 AM) Azrael07: *they interchange their list
(08:14:07 AM) Kangounator: :O was afk
(08:14:25 AM) Amanieu: Why would they interchange lists?
(08:15:09 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: to not have only one centralized masterserver
(08:15:12 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: like jabber
(08:15:39 AM) Amanieu: How do you know when someone adds a new master?
(08:16:18 AM) Amanieu: brb food
(08:16:34 AM) Azrael07: new master contact an other master
(08:16:43 AM) Azrael07: and this other server forward...
(08:17:31 AM) Azrael07: I like the idea to decentralise tremulous... nobody must have a full control on something
(08:18:18 AM) Amanieu: The master server was down a few hours ago btw ;)
(08:19:10 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: have you read my mail ? :P
(08:19:19 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: about favorites sharing ? :)
(08:19:34 AM) ***Amanieu is half asleep
(08:19:40 AM) Azrael07: ^^
(08:19:54 AM) ***TsT shake Amanieu 
(08:20:17 AM) TsT: Azrael07 we can already have multiple masterserver isn'it ?
(08:20:25 AM) STFU-Ender: sorry, my wife called
(08:20:29 AM) ***STFU-Ender reads to catch up
(08:20:45 AM) TsT: i don't remember the cvar name that contains masterserver_s_ infos ..
(08:21:23 AM) STFU-Ender: so, the question I have is how does a client get a master server's address?
(08:21:45 AM) ***Amanieu is confused
(08:21:51 AM) Amanieu: brb, food
(08:21:58 AM) Amanieu: s/food/trem/
(08:21:58 AM) STFU-Ender: I think it's a great system - some games I know and love are dead because the company stopped their master server, even though the game lives on
(08:22:20 AM) STFU-Ender: but now no one can play because they can't replace the master server in the code - closed source, and all
(08:22:34 AM) STFU-Ender: anyways, I gotta go spackle a wall - be back in 10 min
(08:22:41 AM) Kangounator: cl_masterserver would be a quickfix
(08:23:18 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: maybe if a client know an adress, it never forget it ?
(08:23:39 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: after... if first masterserver is dead... it's dead, we can't do anything
(08:24:09 AM) Azrael07: but player will be probably able to find new adresse on forums
(08:24:41 AM) Azrael07: but sure, with a new client, if main masterserver is down, I see no issue :/
(08:24:45 AM) Kangounator: or they will get disappointed
(08:25:08 AM) Kangounator: and go buy Call of Duty 8
(08:26:22 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: diappointed about ?
(08:27:10 AM) Kangounator: about having to search on a forum to learn how to tweak some hard to understand configuration
(08:28:28 AM) Azrael07: of course, but in any case, if main masterserver is down, I see no over choice
(08:30:33 AM) STFU-Ender: How does something like eMule work?
(08:30:48 AM) Amanieu: Builtin list I believe
(08:30:51 AM) delroth: server list files
(08:30:55 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: there is masterserver on emule
(08:30:59 AM) delroth: Amanieu: not always builtin
(08:31:00 AM) Amanieu: You can download lists from the internet
(08:31:07 AM) Kangounator: there is some kind os built in list of master servers
(08:31:26 AM) Kangounator: although it can also be upadted by asing to one of the masters
(08:32:11 AM) STFU-Ender: so, I think a system like that will work nicely
(08:32:41 AM) STFU-Ender: Back to the idea of a release system
(08:32:48 AM) Amanieu: Hey, once the devs release trem 1.2, how much time will they have before people start asking for 1.3>
(08:32:56 AM) STFU-Ender: lol
(08:33:00 AM) Amanieu: I'd say like 1 month
(08:33:02 AM) STFU-Ender: several months
(08:33:14 AM) STFU-Ender: actually, someone on tremulous.net will ask that day
(08:33:22 AM) STFU-Ender: but, we ignore tremulous.net :D
(08:33:25 AM) Kangounator: n00b pl0x ?
(08:33:40 AM) Azrael07: but devs said they will not develop 1.3
(08:33:43 AM) Amanieu: not someone, half of the idiots on the forums!
(08:33:48 AM) STFU-Ender: lol
(08:33:49 AM) Amanieu: Azrael07: They did?
(08:33:58 AM) STFU-Ender: 1.2 is it, I guess
(08:34:07 AM) STFU-Ender: wouldn't be surprised - seems like they've stopped at 1.1
(08:34:28 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: yep
(08:35:05 AM) Amanieu: Well if they release 1.2, we will take over development
(08:35:17 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: but MG will probably take the next
(08:35:32 AM) Azrael07: if they release ^^'
(08:35:59 AM) Amanieu: grrrr
(08:36:16 AM) Amanieu: That's why they are taking so long for 1.2
(08:36:16 AM) Kangounator: Amanieu: don't you like MG ?
(08:36:23 AM) Amanieu: They want to make it perfect
(08:36:31 AM) Amanieu: Kangounator: I do, I was just joking ;)
(08:36:36 AM) Kangounator: :P
(08:37:47 AM) Raboulk: i'm not sure about how kademlia is working, but i think it's fully decentralised
(08:38:13 AM) Azrael07: Raboulk: nop, must have first adress from an http adress
(08:38:34 AM) Azrael07: Raboulk: it's decentralised because there is not only one address where you can get it
(08:38:42 AM) Kangounator: Amanieu: why do you want to use libjit ?
(08:39:14 AM) Raboulk: Azrael07: yes, but as soon as you have one peer, you get all the other, right?
(08:39:41 AM) Azrael07: Raboulk: yes, but you must get the first peer :)
(08:39:42 AM) Kangounator: probably
(08:39:53 AM) STFU-Ender: Do we have anywhere these IRC discussions are logged or saved?
(08:39:59 AM) Kangounator: mmmmmh
(08:40:02 AM) Kangounator: dunno
(08:40:05 AM) Azrael07: I don't log
(08:40:12 AM) Kangounator: I could make a bot that listens everything
(08:40:15 AM) Raboulk: Azrael07: yeah, but getting the first peer dosn't requier a fixed server
(08:40:18 AM) Azrael07: but I should do it... ^^
(08:40:21 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: good idea :)
(08:40:22 AM) Kangounator: and sends it to a website or whatever
(08:40:34 AM) Kangounator: ok but then give me a service to show the logs
(08:40:36 AM) STFU-Ender: Kangounator: agreed, good idea
(08:40:37 AM) Azrael07: Raboulk: how do you know this first peer ?
(08:40:53 AM) Kangounator: (python ftw)
(08:41:08 AM) Amanieu: I log!
(08:41:20 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: oh :-)
(08:41:44 AM) Kangounator: I log too but I'm not always there
(08:41:50 AM) Azrael07: but a self-updating system to put full logs on http should be good
(08:41:51 AM) Raboulk: Azrael07: i know, but as you said the list can be found anywhere it is put
(08:41:58 AM) Kangounator: could someone help me setting up an irssi screen ?
(08:42:51 AM) Azrael07: Raboulk: ok ^^
(08:43:07 AM) Raboulk: Azrael07: plus, when you have connected once, the client ca nremember some peers so you don't need any list
(08:43:08 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: hum ? a bot with an irssi screen ?
(08:43:12 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: use python, no ?
(08:43:40 AM) Kangounator: Azrael07: yup
(08:43:51 AM) Kangounator: Azrael07: but for my own use I'd like to use irssi
(08:44:50 AM) Azrael07: oooh ok :)
(08:44:52 AM) Azrael07: so....
(08:44:56 AM) Azrael07: apt-get install irssi
(08:44:59 AM) Azrael07: scren irssi
(08:45:01 AM) Azrael07: and it's ok :D
(08:45:02 AM) Azrael07: ^^
(08:45:05 AM) Azrael07: *screen
(08:45:21 AM) Amanieu: http://amanieu.homelinux.com/tremforges.log
(08:45:37 AM) Amanieu: Its symlinked to my real log so it is automatically updated
(08:45:47 AM) Kangounator: xD
(08:45:54 AM) Kangounator: nice one
(08:45:57 AM) Raboulk: STFU-Ender: i read you had someone on stfu team who's working on sounds, is there anywhere i can see his work?
(08:46:16 AM) evilchampion [n=student@bwdsb.on.ca] entered the room.
(08:46:23 AM) evilchampion: BOO
(08:46:27 AM) Amanieu: HII
(08:46:34 AM) evilchampion: did i scare u?
(08:46:36 AM) ***Kangounator hides himself
(08:46:48 AM) Raboulk: i pooped in my pants
(08:46:54 AM) Amanieu: evilchampion: If you want the log for this channel: http://amanieu.homelinux.com/tremforges.log
(08:47:16 AM) Raboulk: that's squixhty
(08:47:16 AM) Raboulk: squishy*
(08:47:16 AM) Amanieu: Its symlinked to my real log so it is automatically updated
(08:47:23 AM) evilchampion: sweet
(08:47:44 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: yes, I'll host them on our server
(08:47:49 AM) Raboulk: cool
(08:47:59 AM) evilchampion: lol i missed something
(08:48:08 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: but, you can also get them at http://groups.obliter8.com/node/3542
(08:48:18 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Ender: What's your server IP again so I can add it to my hosts file
(08:48:19 AM) STFU-Ender: http://groups.obliter8.com/node/3538
(08:48:20 AM) evilchampion: STFU-Ender: are we gonna have our server forever?
(08:48:31 AM) STFU-Ender: oh, hey champ
(08:48:33 AM) Raboulk: i'm part af a rock band, and our songs are CC, and we can provide our recordings and our pro tools sessions if needed
(08:48:44 AM) STFU-Ender: yeah, we should - or at least until the University finds it after I graduate and disconnects it :D
(08:49:11 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: cool - I actually like rock, and that's what I had envisioned for STFU trem, but we were also getting some very good stuff from Vortexx, so I went with it
(08:49:19 AM) Raboulk: STFU-Ender: alors, a friend of mine (frog) is actually working on sounds
(08:49:27 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: http://groups.obliter8.com/node/3419
(08:49:35 AM) evilchampion: lol hide it good
(08:49:42 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: http://groups.obliter8.com/node/3407
(08:49:53 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion: I will - I think I can actually fit it in the cieling tiles :D
(08:50:02 AM) evilchampion: lol
(08:50:19 AM) Kangounator: compiling irssi
(08:50:22 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion: in a run-down, forgotten section of the engineering building. It just needs power and ethernet, and they're already in the cieling :)
(08:50:52 AM) STFU-Ender: Raboulk: http://groups.obliter8.com/node/3260 - a general area with our content
(08:51:05 AM) Raboulk: STFU-Ender: actually, our songs are not really adapted for tremulous, but i think about one intro we made which could be good for main menu
(08:51:12 AM) STFU-Ender: evilcahmpion: have you read the email from Azrael?
(08:51:21 AM) evilchampion: fire in university engineering building was traced back to a computer planted 10 years ago by Mr. Ribble
(08:51:24 AM) evilchampion: yea i have
(08:51:36 AM) STFU-Ender: what release plan do you think is best?
(08:52:10 AM) Raboulk: STFU-Ender: also we have some music extracts that can make great sound effetcs i think
(08:52:25 AM) evilchampion: Maurice Doison = Azrael07?
(08:52:30 AM) evilchampion: ==
(08:52:34 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion: nah, they'd never trace it back to me. The computer doesn't have any of my personally identifiable information on it (except an occasional DNS name...) and it was never given to me. I stole it from some guy who had left it there and formatted the sucker :)
(08:52:47 AM) evilchampion: lol
(08:52:59 AM) Azrael07: evilchampion: yes
(08:53:30 AM) Raboulk: boo that's sloooow to download
(08:53:35 AM) evilchampion: kk yeah i have
(08:54:36 AM) STFU-Ender: oh, and does anyone know the best way to put a bleeding-edge build into ubuntu without breaking the package you're replacing?
(08:54:51 AM) STFU-Ender: I had to build my own pulseaudio and I want to install the binary I built without messing up the pulseaudio package
(08:54:55 AM) Amanieu: nope
(08:55:13 AM) ***STFU-Ender looks at champion and his mighty Ubuntu knowledge
(08:55:16 AM) evilchampion: just rename the old /usr/bin/pulseaudio and replace it with the new one
(08:55:30 AM) Amanieu: You can just reinstall the package later
(08:55:36 AM) STFU-Ender: rename instead of delete in case I need the backup?
(08:55:43 AM) Kangounator: sure
(08:55:51 AM) STFU-Ender: k, testing...
(08:55:51 AM) evilchampion: well you coul do what Amanieu sai
(08:55:53 AM) evilchampion: d
(08:58:38 AM) Kangounator: liqstening to the songs
(08:58:43 AM) STFU-Ender: arg - not working as easily as I thought. Pulseaudio wants to make directories and files in /usr/bin when it's run from there...
(08:59:00 AM) STFU-Ender: it can never just be easy...
(08:59:35 AM) Kangounator: btw ender, thanks for telling me you last repository's url
(08:59:38 AM) evilchampion: hmm
(09:00:05 AM) evilchampion: STFU-Ender: try searching for 64bit pulseaudio deb packages
(09:01:31 AM) Amanieu: Wow nice songs!
(09:01:36 AM) Kangounator: yup
(09:01:38 AM) STFU-Ender: yeah, Vortexx does good work
(09:01:38 AM) Kangounator: <3
(09:01:50 AM) Kangounator: hey I know :D
(09:01:55 AM) STFU-Ender: so does Chess - but I guess you guys haven't been pointed to his graphics much
(09:02:00 AM) ***Amanieu listens to them in a loop for the next 20 hours
(09:02:06 AM) STFU-Ender: lol
(09:02:09 AM) Amanieu: I've seen it
(09:02:33 AM) Kangounator: we let the game choose a new loop based on what happens
(09:02:54 AM) Amanieu: Make it client side
(09:03:05 AM) STFU-Ender: yeah
(09:03:13 AM) evilchampion: yeh .ogg client side
(09:03:27 AM) STFU-Ender: I love OGG support
(09:03:30 AM) Kangounator: (info sent by the server ? for example when more then 400 damages are made to the base in less than 1 min, the server would send a 'base attack' song notice and the client would play one of the many base under attack looops)
(09:03:56 AM) ***evilchampion suddenly thinks of pokemon music for some reason
(09:03:59 AM) Amanieu: Another argument for removing sv_pure: The player can put his own songs instead of the default one
(09:04:02 AM) Kangounator: xD
(09:04:07 AM) Kangounator: yup
(09:04:08 AM) STFU-Ender: Amanieu: definitely
(09:04:27 AM) evilchampion: Amanieu: we could specail case .oggs so they would be ignored in pure
(09:04:33 AM) ***Raboulk dislike vortexx's electro :'(
(09:04:39 AM) delroth: Amanieu: same for the textures, I'm actually using an alternative texture pack for tremulous, I could not do that kind of thing without my bypass ;)
(09:04:53 AM) Kangounator: delroth: how does it look like ?
(09:04:54 AM) Amanieu: Just remove pure completely
(09:04:57 AM) Kangounator: is it stale ?
(09:05:01 AM) Kangounator: stable* ?
(09:05:03 AM) STFU-Ender: Anyways, yeah, the logic for situation-based music would be easier to do in the server side, and then send a notice to the client
(09:05:12 AM) evilchampion: Amanieu: completly removeing it has wide reaching effects
(09:05:18 AM) STFU-Ender: because most of the logic involves damage to different things, or locations of different things
(09:05:18 AM) delroth: Kangounator: see on FTN the iFrancois' texture pack ;)
(09:05:40 AM) Amanieu: evilchampion: Didn't we already discuss this?
(09:05:50 AM) ***Amanieu checks the log
(09:05:51 AM) evilchampion: i could just make shaders and textures for a map that make all the walls transparent
(09:05:53 AM) Kangounator: going even further, the client could have some script hoks do let the player define some special logic for the music
(09:06:02 AM) Kangounator: you could
(09:06:20 AM) Kangounator: but I'd use a non cheat cvars instead
(09:06:30 AM) Kangounator: r_shownormals :P
(09:06:31 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion has a point
(09:06:54 AM) Kangounator: in facts everyone can bypass sv_pure
(09:06:55 AM) evilchampion: i mean yeah somebody could make there own trem without pure at all
(09:06:57 AM) Amanieu: If you wanted to cheat you would just compile your own executable with a bypass patch
(09:07:03 AM) Kangounator: you simply need a custom client
(09:07:45 AM) evilchampion: it would also effect regulare non-cheating clients
(09:08:02 AM) evilchampion: you could two different versions of the same map
(09:08:09 AM) ***STFU-Ender thinks we should discuss a release plan rather than individual features at this point
(09:08:29 AM) ***evilchampion agrees
(09:08:30 AM) Kangounator: release plan ?
(09:08:34 AM) ***Amanieu agrees
(09:08:36 AM) Kangounator: what's that ?
(09:08:40 AM) Amanieu: >.<
(09:08:50 AM) Kangounator: some kind of overview of the upcoming work right ?
(09:08:54 AM) Amanieu: Yeah
(09:08:57 AM) Kangounator: ok
(09:08:59 AM) ***evilchampion pokes Kangounator
(09:09:06 AM) ***Kangounator cries
(09:09:28 AM) Amanieu: So....
(09:09:33 AM) Amanieu: What's the plan?
(09:10:05 AM) Kangounator: .
(09:10:18 AM) evilchampion: start seperating indivual features in seperate patches?
(09:10:18 AM) STFU-Ender: As for STFU - the only group I can speak for - we'd be better off not releasing anything of ours and working on a merge now
(09:10:32 AM) STFU-Ender: That would involve getting the latest HEAD build
(09:10:37 AM) STFU-Ender: backporting to protocol 69
(09:10:42 AM) STFU-Ender: breaking out individual features
(09:10:45 AM) evilchampion: adding botlib!!
(09:10:46 AM) STFU-Ender: voting on them
(09:10:53 AM) STFU-Ender: re-coding the ones that need improvement
(09:10:55 AM) evilchampion: that needs to be one of the first things
(09:11:06 AM) STFU-Ender: pulling out most of Lakitu7's QVM into python scripts
(09:11:12 AM) evilchampion: or lua
(09:11:15 AM) STFU-Ender: that are individually installable without a source rebuild
(09:11:42 AM) evilchampion: i think we should do identical  scripts in both languesgs
(09:11:48 AM) STFU-Ender: and then releasing a 1.0 of whatever the merge will be named when we get everything of ours that currently works working again
(09:11:52 AM) Azrael07: I think we must all make point of features we have
(09:12:04 AM) evilchampion: Azrael07: yeah...
(09:12:05 AM) STFU-Ender: I think that's the best course of action
(09:12:16 AM) Azrael07: we can use dnc wiki
(09:12:18 AM) Azrael07: then
(09:12:18 AM) evilchampion: brb
(09:12:22 AM) Azrael07: we must find a name
(09:12:31 AM) Kangounator: no need to find one now
(09:12:33 AM) Azrael07: a name for a game, not only a fun name
(09:12:36 AM) Amanieu: Name comes later
(09:12:37 AM) Kangounator: though I would like to use tremor
(09:12:40 AM) STFU-Ender: well, before we get into that - does DnC and Amanieu want to do it that way?
(09:12:48 AM) Amanieu: Sure!
(09:12:48 AM) Kangounator: +1
(09:13:03 AM) STFU-Ender: does DnC want to finish their next release before doing this?
(09:13:13 AM) STFU-Ender: because this project will be huge
(09:13:21 AM) Azrael07: I vote against
(09:13:29 AM) Azrael07: you want, like us, make a release soon
(09:13:35 AM) Kangounator: Azrael07: that's like kitty
(09:13:54 AM) Kangounator: let's finish that eggy r2 stable <-- pretty quick
(09:14:05 AM) Azrael07: eggy r2 is ok
(09:14:06 AM) Kangounator: and then go on with this
(09:14:11 AM) Azrael07: now it's a beta version
(09:14:22 AM) Azrael07: only some little bugs to fux
(09:14:41 AM) Azrael07: what I suggest:
(09:14:47 AM) Amanieu: I say we drop kitty and go with the merge
(09:15:05 AM) Azrael07: this week(end) every team make point of things it want to merge
(09:15:14 AM) Amanieu: ok
(09:15:19 AM) Kangounator: mmmmh
(09:15:28 AM) Kangounator: maybe we could use the wiki to do that
(09:15:38 AM) Azrael07: then, we talk togather for integration or not of all there features
(09:15:40 AM) STFU-Ender: Kang: agree - wiki would be better
(09:15:43 AM) Kangounator: each team would list what it wants to merge and to add after that
(09:15:47 AM) Azrael07: yes
(09:15:53 AM) Amanieu: I already have a complete list of all my features on my wiki
(09:15:56 AM) Azrael07: for the moment, we can use dnc wiki, if you want
(09:16:08 AM) Azrael07: or another, I don't care
(09:16:27 AM) Azrael07: for the next, I suggest to use DnC infrastructure
(09:16:32 AM) Azrael07: we have a dedicate server
(09:16:34 AM) STFU-Ender: Amanieu: have I seen your wiki? Not sure if I've gotten a pointer to it
(09:16:44 AM) Azrael07: and pierref and madtree are very good admins :)
(09:16:46 AM) Kangounator: STFU-Ender: it is our main website
(09:16:54 AM) Amanieu: http://code.google.com/p/tremulous-amanieu/wiki/Features
(09:17:08 AM) ***STFU-Ender doesn't like google wikis at all
(09:17:10 AM) Kangounator: ubs, I was mistaken ender
(09:17:17 AM) ***STFU-Ender dropped his googlecode site almost entirely for the wiki
(09:17:23 AM) Azrael07: ^^
(09:17:29 AM) Azrael07: what do you think about trac ?
(09:17:33 AM) Azrael07: I really like it
(09:17:38 AM) evilchampion left the room (quit: "Leaving.").
(09:17:41 AM) STFU-Ender: not sure, never used a trac wiki
(09:17:43 AM) Kangounator: ?
(09:17:47 AM) STFU-Ender: let me see...
(09:17:54 AM) ***STFU-Ender is checking out trac wiki syntax/features
(09:17:58 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: let me give you some links
(09:18:24 AM) Azrael07: http://dnc.tremforges.net/trac/report/1 <== list of tasks
(09:18:36 AM) Azrael07: http://dnc.tremforges.net/trac/report/2 <== of bugs
(09:18:42 AM) Azrael07: http://dnc.tremforges.net/trac/report/3 <== of wishs
(09:18:58 AM) Kangounator: ok enough
(09:19:09 AM) Azrael07: http://dnc.tremforges.net/trac/roadmap <== list of milestone, so it's easy to know when next release will be ok and what remain
(09:19:09 AM) STFU-Ender: k, I like trac wikis - I'd prefer we do everything for this project via the DnC Trac site
(09:19:12 AM) Kangounator: https://dnc.tremforges.net/trac/report
(09:19:34 AM) Azrael07: ok
(09:20:22 AM) STFU-Ender: for now, I suggest we call this project TheMerge until we make up a name for it that we'll use for the rest of forever
(09:20:24 AM) Kangounator: Azrael07: I begin doing it or I do ?
(09:20:34 AM) Kangounator: :D
(09:20:41 AM) Kangounator: you do*
(09:21:14 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: hum ?
(09:21:20 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: ok
(09:21:24 AM) Kangounator: making the list of our features
(09:21:34 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator: you can do it :)
(09:21:46 AM) Kangounator: I'll probably forget things
(09:21:59 AM) Azrael07: I'll checked what you do :)
(09:22:25 AM) STFU-Ender: let's get a page made for TheMerge that has sections for each team to post features they want merged in and a section for overall design decisions
(09:22:29 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: however, I continue to work on madcat without merge for the moment
(09:22:39 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: sure
(09:22:50 AM) Kangounator: STFU-Ender: I'll make a page called TheMergeDncFeatures
(09:22:56 AM) Azrael07: ok
(09:23:13 AM) Azrael07: maybe it could be better to setup a new empty trac ?
(09:23:20 AM) Kangounator: not for now
(09:23:24 AM) Azrael07: ok
(09:23:26 AM) evilchampion [n=student@bwdsb.on.ca] entered the room.
(09:23:38 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: about revision control software, what do you like to use ?
(09:23:43 AM) ***STFU-Ender just looked at the screenshots from DnC =-O
(09:23:44 AM) evilchampion: grrr computer went to sleep
(09:23:52 AM) Azrael07: I hate svn, but amanieu hate all other software :D
(09:23:56 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: strong, strong preference for SVN
(09:24:01 AM) Azrael07: erf
(09:24:02 AM) Azrael07: why ?
(09:24:12 AM) Amanieu: Everyone has it
(09:24:15 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: because I hate CVS, and I don't know of anything else :D
(09:24:17 AM) Kangounator: mercurial is handy when you understand how it works :<
(09:24:32 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: oh, I don't speak about CVS, CVS is dead :P
(09:24:33 AM) Kangounator: STFU-Ender: we do have screenshots ???? I didn't know
(09:24:39 AM) evilchampion: LETS USE BAZAAR BECAUSE ITS PYTHON
(09:24:47 AM) Amanieu: !mute evilchampion
(09:24:50 AM) Azrael07: evilchampion: mercurial its python too :P
(09:24:53 AM) Kangounator: !kb evilchampion
(09:24:54 AM) evilchampion: self updating server :D
(09:24:57 AM) evilchampion: lol
(09:25:16 AM) evilchampion: o yeah your Trac thing is python
(09:25:28 AM) STFU-Ender: Kang: http://www.thcteam.org/~mdoison/DnC_Skin_Screens/
(09:25:30 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: in fact, svn don't manages branches (branch = directory), so it's very hard to branch a project
(09:25:57 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: ? - SVN has been very easy to branch for me...
(09:26:25 AM) evilchampion: STFU-Ender: they really arent branches is what he means
(09:26:45 AM) Azrael07: mmm... maybe because you don't know a real branch system ? ^^
(09:27:16 AM) Azrael07: I don't want to flame or whatever , but I'm really incomodate by subversion :/
(09:27:26 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: likely. I haven't had a lot of reason to branch before, so the SVN system seems adequate to me
(09:27:43 AM) Kangounator: STFU-Ender: I might reuse these menus too http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6994 (and thellrider's hud + that one http://tremulous.net/forum/index.php?topic=6214)
(09:27:45 AM) STFU-Ender: incomodate = uncomfortable?
(09:27:46 AM) evilchampion: Azrael07: its kinda like my thing agaist lua :D
(09:27:58 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Ender: yes :)
(09:28:03 AM) Kangounator: STFU-Ender: incommadate = make you feel uncomfortable
(09:28:23 AM) Azrael07: the english word "incommodate" don't exist ? erf, sorry ^^'
(09:28:28 AM) ***STFU-Ender speaks Spanish, and a little Italian - makes all of the Latin-derivative langauges a little easier
(09:28:42 AM) ***evilchampion should know french but doesnt
(09:29:08 AM) evilchampion: it part of out curiculemt
(09:29:14 AM) evilchampion: curiculem*
(09:29:19 AM) ***STFU-Ender wishes Esperanto had caught on more because English, while his native toungue, is like C
(09:29:21 AM) evilchampion: lol nvm
(09:29:29 AM) ***STFU-Ender meant FORTRAN
(09:29:44 AM) STFU-Ender: because C actually has uses these days
(09:29:55 AM) STFU-Ender: curriculum :)
(09:30:00 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: in DnC, we have currently 6 branches
(09:30:11 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: on a branch, I try to implement lua
(09:30:11 AM) TsT: like a monter ? :D
(09:30:17 AM) evilchampion: brb moving to cafietera
(09:30:21 AM) evilchampion left the room.
(09:30:25 AM) Azrael07: on another, it's madcat and gameplay improvements
(09:30:31 AM) Azrael07: on another, it's kitty main branch
(09:30:45 AM) Azrael07: on another, madtree make renderer tests
(09:30:55 AM) Azrael07: and when a feature is ready, we merge it in main branch
(09:31:01 AM) STFU-Ender: ah
(09:31:18 AM) STFU-Ender: so, what revisioning system is good at that sort of thing? I use SVN because it's common, but it's always good to learn new things
(09:31:21 AM) Azrael07: and old branch simply disappear
(09:31:34 AM) STFU-Ender: also, doesn't Trac have integrated SVN support?
(09:31:41 AM) Amanieu: mercurial is too complicated to use
(09:31:51 AM) STFU-Ender: I love project management suites with SCM support - like Trac
(09:31:54 AM) Azrael07: trac can use all revision system you want ^^
(09:31:58 AM) STFU-Ender: ah
(09:31:59 AM) STFU-Ender: python
(09:32:02 AM) STFU-Ender: so cool
(09:32:06 AM) Azrael07: lol :P
(09:32:19 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: it's not so hard... :/
(09:32:20 AM) Azrael07: then
(09:32:28 AM) Azrael07: I will make a mercurial howto
(09:32:36 AM) Kangounator: at last :D
(09:32:42 AM) Azrael07: you try it a little on sandbox
(09:32:57 AM) Azrael07: (amanieu, you too ! :P)
(09:33:08 AM) ***STFU-Ender is reading the mercurial tutorial
(09:33:15 AM) Azrael07: and we make choice when you know mercurial, ok ?
(09:33:48 AM) Azrael07: basicly, it's the same, but a commit make only a local commit
(09:34:00 AM) Azrael07: you must use hg push do send it to server
(09:34:05 AM) Amanieu: We won't be using a version control system until we get those lists together
(09:34:14 AM) Azrael07: (but you can make local commit only, and cancel a commit while it's not pushed)
(09:34:20 AM) STFU-Ender: lol, mercurial uses 'hg' for it's command line - the chemical symbol for mercury!
(09:34:27 AM) Amanieu: Yup
(09:34:29 AM) Azrael07: yes ^^
(09:34:47 AM) Azrael07: Amanieu: what do you mean with "those lists" ?
(09:35:02 AM) STFU-Ender: anyways, Amanieu has a good point - we need design decisions before we need SCM decisions
(09:35:03 AM) Amanieu: List of stuff we want to merge
(09:35:06 AM) Azrael07: oh, yes
(09:35:08 AM) STFU-Ender: although, the SCM decisions will be a close second
(09:35:22 AM) Azrael07: sure, I agree :)
(09:35:33 AM) Vaureee [n=user@122.218.82-79.rev.gaoland.net] entered the room.
(09:36:14 AM) Amanieu: Did anyone create that wiki page?
(09:36:40 AM) Azrael07: Kangounator did it, didn't he ?
(09:36:46 AM) Kangounator: I did
(09:36:56 AM) Kangounator: Amanieu: create your own page
(09:37:19 AM) Kangounator: such as TheMergeAmanieuFeatures
(09:37:41 AM) evilchampion [n=student@bwdsb.on.ca] entered the room.
(09:37:47 AM) evilchampion: back
(09:37:57 AM) ***evilchampion checks what he missed
(09:38:20 AM) STFU-Ender: so far I'm liking mercurial
(09:38:32 AM) STFU-Ender: phone
(09:38:38 AM) evilchampion: k
(09:40:41 AM) STFU-Ender: back
(09:41:25 AM) evilchampion: so i should start separating my python stuff into a seperate patch?
(09:43:46 AM) Amanieu: Yeah
(09:43:48 AM) Azrael07: evilchampion: maybe a merge will be better for big patches
(09:44:13 AM) Azrael07: evilchampion: your python layer know conditional compilation to disable python ?
(09:44:28 AM) Amanieu: No he needs to separate his python code from the rest of stfutrem
(09:44:38 AM) Amanieu: Also need to separate the bot code
(09:44:54 AM) STFU-Ender: separating the bot code is a big job
(09:44:58 AM) Azrael07: mmm... yes
(09:45:11 AM) Azrael07: STFU-Ender: you can't make a diff ?
(09:45:39 AM) STFU-Ender: against what? If we use the Trem SVN, we'll get TONS of non-bot stuff (Lakitu, python, my modifications...)
(09:45:50 AM) Kangounator: mmmmmh
(09:46:05 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Ender: pile up a few svn diff from your own repo
(09:46:07 AM) Kangounator: grep -rni "bot" ./src ? :P
(09:46:35 AM) Amanieu: Kangounator: no
(09:47:14 AM) Amanieu: STFU-Ender: "svn diff -r <from>:<to>
(09:47:28 AM) Amanieu: To get the stuff added in rev 123:
(09:47:37 AM) Amanieu: svn diff -r 122:123
(09:47:56 AM) evilchampion: the botlib was allways in the svn (both of them) before right?
(09:48:04 AM) Kangounator: mmmh
(09:48:11 AM) evilchampion: we have had two svns
(09:49:57 AM) evilchampion: we do have the original botlib patch
(09:50:46 AM) STFU-Ender: yes
(09:51:07 AM) STFU-Ender: true, but we've made quite a few changes. In fact, you didn't even see the code before I had already made some changes :(
(09:52:32 AM) Vaureee: plop
(09:52:47 AM) STFU-Ender: it's crazy, but it actually might be easier for us to merge the Tremulous HEAD in, then pull out all the extra stuff out of our code
(09:53:01 AM) STFU-Ender: rather than getting the HEAD and merging all of our bot/python stuff in
(09:53:17 AM) Kangounator: mmmmh
(09:53:18 AM) STFU-Ender: and by 'extra stuff' I mean all the lakitu7/special commands which should become python/lua scripts
(09:53:54 AM) Amanieu: In the end we still have a patch with python and bots, right?
(09:54:07 AM) Amanieu: If you diff that with a pure HEAD
(09:54:33 AM) STFU-Ender: yes
(09:54:44 AM) STFU-Ender: and that's the important thing
(09:54:50 AM) STFU-Ender: champ - agree/disagree?
(09:55:07 AM) Amanieu: Have 2 patches: 1 for bots and 1 for python
(09:55:20 AM) Amanieu: We will have to mess with the python so it plays nice with lua
(09:56:10 AM) Amanieu: Also any other interesting things you have that you think we should add
(09:56:59 AM) evilchampion: STFU-Ender: waaait wat?
(10:00:09 AM) evilchampion: brb
(10:01:05 AM) STFU-Ender: fine, ask a question like that and then leave...
(10:01:07 AM) STFU-Ender: :)
(10:01:15 AM) evilchampion: lol
(10:01:19 AM) evilchampion: im here
(10:01:23 AM) evilchampion: for now
(10:01:41 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion: The question is this: do you agree that it would be easier to merge in the latest Tremulous HEAD (without protocol 70) and then pull stuff out of our code to create a bot patch?
(10:02:01 AM) STFU-Ender: evilchampion: or do you think it would be easier to start with the HEAD and add in the bot code to get a patch?
(10:02:27 AM) evilchampion: it would probably be easyier to start from scratch
(10:02:41 AM) STFU-Ender: also, I've read through some stuff on mercurial now. I think it would be the way to go
(10:04:24 AM) evilchampion: heh its python so im happy
(10:05:20 AM) STFU-Ender: good
(10:05:27 AM) STFU-Ender: well, I'm going to go make that wiki page on the DnC wiki
(10:05:34 AM) STFU-Ender: then I'm going to go get some work done that I get paid for :D
(10:05:45 AM) STFU-Ender: I'll stay connected to this chatroom though so I can read what goes on
(10:06:44 AM) evilchampion: STFU-Ender: money!!! you and your money
(10:07:21 AM) STFU-Ender: yes, well, get married and buy a house and you'll understand
(10:07:44 AM) Kangounator: xD
(10:07:57 AM) STFU-Ender: had I stayed single longer, I would have undoubtedly programmed many, many more video games and been much less wealthy :D
(10:18:18 AM) STFU-Ender: sigh - now do I get a login for the DnC Trac page?
(10:18:26 AM) Kangounator: erhm
(10:18:35 AM) STFU-Ender: *how
(10:18:36 AM) Kangounator: ask Azrael07 or PierreF
(10:18:59 AM) Kangounator: or Madtree
(10:19:04 AM) STFU-Ender: Azrael: how do I get a login for the DnC Trac site?
(10:19:16 AM) Kangounator: you don't need one an account to edit pages
(10:19:34 AM) STFU-Ender: ah. yes. you're right
(10:25:41 AM) Kangounator: brb